The American right wing is fond of talking about "the deep state" of late.
Each side has its boogeymen and suspected conspirators, like the way the left wing feels about the Koch brothers.
Nancy MacLean adds a name in her book Democracy in Chains: The Deep History of the Radical Right’s Stealth Plan for America.
And the name is that of James McGill Buchanan, presumed architect of many right wing victories and a friend to the Kochs.
Nancy MacLean joins us to talk about her findings.